Help Me Decide, Oppo

"for Michigan" (formichigan) 07/26/2016 at 16:31 • Filed to: None

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I’ve been looking for a new fun car for a while now. As much as I love my Mazda3, it’s no sports car. Right now I’m looking at two different options and I’d like your input.

1) 88 Pontiac Fiero Formula

My first car was an 85 Fiero with the 2.5 L Iron Duke and a 3-speed automatic. It was slow, rode terribly, and I loved it. It would be awesome to have another Fiero, but I don’t want another base model.

A 5-speed Formula, with its 2.8 L V6 and Lotus-tuned suspension, would improve on all of the faults of my old car and let me enjoy some wonderful mid-engined fun again. It isn’t an AW11 MR2, but then some publications actually preferred the Formula back in the day.

There’s one for $4500 with under 50K miles on it near by that I’m currently ogling. It’s wonderfully clean.

2) Merkur XR4Ti

The XR4Ti was released when my dad was in college and it was one car he always wanted but never had the opportunity to own. Before he passed early this year, I talked to him about my desire to own one and he thought it was really cool that I was interested in a car he wanted when he was my age.

What gives me pause when weighing the XR4Ti against the Fiero is that maintaining the Merkur is going to be difficult. Parts are scarce and only getting scarcer. Keeping this car on the road may be beyond my means.

Additionally, while I love that the Merkur is a RWD 3-door hatch, that’s something I want in a daily driver, not a sports car. I’d rather not waste space and weight on a back seat that I won’t use.

There’s one going for $3000 with nearly 140K miles on it nearby that I’ve been staring at for the past week. It has a frustrating mix of desirable and undesirable modifications.

Summary

Maybe there are some drawbacks to the Fiero, but I can’t think of any. It’s exactly everything I’m looking for in a fun car.

There are definitely drawbacks to the XR4Ti, but I love how weird it is and it would be a cool tribute to my dad.

What do you think, fellow Opponaughts?

S65 > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:34

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Fiero because mid engine cars are cool

for Michigan > S65 07/26/2016 at 16:36

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Yes they are. Was looking at AW11's for a while because I think a super-charged mid-engine sports car would be the bomb, but they’re all rust buckets around here.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:39

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First or second generation RX-7.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/570069…

Chasaboo > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:41

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You sure know how to paint yourself into a used car corner.

C62030 > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:42

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Fiero because 80s GM interiors

for Michigan > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/26/2016 at 16:42

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Would love either one, but I really don’t want to bother with a rotary.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:43

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Fiero. There’s a guy near me selling a pair of ‘88 Formulas for $1000. Only one of them is worth anything, the other one even kinda sucks as a parts car. I think Fieros are something you're better off getting as good of one as you can afford though.

for Michigan > C62030 07/26/2016 at 16:43

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I love the Fiero’s interior.

for Michigan > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 07/26/2016 at 16:45

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Fieros are just now starting to appreciate, too. So if I were to hold onto what is one of the most desirable Fieros, it would probably be worth something in another 10 years.

Berang > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:45

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Where are you located?

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:45

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I would be scared of an RX-8 or 3rd gen. RX-7, but this generation is relativly simple, tiny engine in a huge engine bay, easy to remove and replace. You just buy 4 or 5 engines and change them out like tires or something, it’s a wear item.

for Michigan > Berang 07/26/2016 at 16:46

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Northwest Ohio.

Bytemite > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:47

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What about a 3rd gen MR2 spyder? Theyre cheap right now for being only like 10-15 years old with Toyota reliability. It will be as fast as the two above cars in a straight line, then slay them in corners.

Im guessing you dont want a Miata?

EL_ULY > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:47

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this helps a lot when asking ze OPPO :]

Spridget > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:49

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Parts on the Merkur won’t be that bad. The Ford Sierra, which the Merkur is based, is extremely common outside of the US. Your only setback will be shipping. I vote Merkur.

derf > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:49

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Yeah, that’s a tougher call than I would have thought on the face of it. I’d still lean Fiero-wards, but the Merkur does have a funky rarity to it, and the connection to your dad is nice. You’re probably right about maintenance though, and “wonderfully clean” vs “frustrating mix of desirable and undesirable modifications” would make the choice clear for me.

Berang > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:51

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Get this:

https://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/566303…

orrrrrrrrr this:

https://toledo.craigslist.org/cto/5679635195…

for Michigan > Bytemite 07/26/2016 at 16:53

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My brother has an NB. The interior is a little tight for me and I’m not a fan of convertibles.

I’ve considered an MR2 Spyder, but good ones still go for $8-10K around here, which is outside my budget, and I don’t like convertibles. Also, I’m fairly certain that MR-S would eat the Fiero’s dust on a track.

EL_ULY > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:53

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https://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/5658390220…

for Michigan > Berang 07/26/2016 at 16:54

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Would rather have the Fiero.

for Michigan > Spridget 07/26/2016 at 16:55

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Whereas most of the parts for the Fiero were from other GM cars, so they’re inexpensive and easy to find.

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:56

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Fiero Formula. No contest.

There’s a really clean one that is relatively close to me. Check it out. http://lansing.craigslist.org/cto/5672755211…

for Michigan > derf 07/26/2016 at 16:56

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Based on the ads, I could bring the Fiero home and easily daily drive it for several years.

I doubt the Merkur would make it several months without needing work.

Point for the Fiero.

for Michigan > EL_ULY 07/26/2016 at 16:57

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*Runs away screaming.*

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:57

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I vote for Fiero. You can do so much to them, though the Formula sounds great as is.

for Michigan > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/26/2016 at 16:57

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I prefer my tires to be wear items, not my engine.

for Michigan > Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage 07/26/2016 at 16:59

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That’s the one.

for Michigan > Chasaboo 07/26/2016 at 16:59

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Thanks?

Bytemite > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 16:59

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Ah I see, no roadsters.

How do you figure that a Fiero with same hp and 500+ more lbs than a MR-S will beat it around a track? The MR-S would have the straight line advantage and cornering advantage.

TysMagic > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:00

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I’ve talked with one Merkur owner and he was uncomfortably obsessed with it. I was drawn to it like a moth to a flame at cars & coffee versus I do not feel the same about the Fiero.
My vote is for the Merkur.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:01

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The only Fiero worth a damn is one of these:

With a Buick 3800 supercharged shoved into it. Fieros really aren’t fabulous cars.

I’d be looking at an SR20 MR2 if you want a midengined sports car that won’t fall to bits every two seconds.

Those Merkurs look awesome but I know next to nothing about them. Other than parts scarcity those look like a winner.

for Michigan > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/26/2016 at 17:02

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And this is why you have so much trouble with cars...

for Michigan > TysMagic 07/26/2016 at 17:04

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Most Fiero owners are obsessive. Most Merkur owners make them Fiero owners look like the stereotypical Camry owner.

Spridget > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:04

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Here are some more of my bright ideas:

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/5702177484…

http://fortwayne.craigslist.org/cto/5694711135…

http://saginaw.craigslist.org/cto/5660267136…

http://annarbor.craigslist.org/cto/5701377252…

http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/cto/5701433598…

http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/567272…

http://lansing.craigslist.org/cto/5700958343…

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/567856…

http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/cto/5700736449…

http://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/5687190669…

http://swmi.craigslist.org/cto/5700355873…

http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/cto/5700221399…

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/570020…

for Michigan > Bytemite 07/26/2016 at 17:05

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From what I’ve read, the Fiero has a better power band and the cornering advantage. I could be wrong, though.

Spridget > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:05

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But the Fiero’s so dull compared to the Merkur. See my other reply for my genius thinking.

C62030 > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:05

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HGHNGNGHN RECTANGLES

Berang > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:06

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I thought you wanted a sports car.

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:06

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Lol. I tried to get my uncle to buy it. Looks pretty damn clean. Kind of the pinnacle of the Fiero if you ask me.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:07

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Huh?

for Michigan > Spridget 07/26/2016 at 17:07

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That XR4Ti looks great!

The EXP had me interested for long enough to look up whether it was actually RWD. It isn’t.

TysMagic > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:08

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so further question, do you want to be one of those guys?

for Michigan > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/26/2016 at 17:10

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You called out the bulletproof option as unreliable, recommended an engine-swapped project car as an alternative, then said I should take the notoriously unreliable option with poor parts availability because you don’t know anything about it.

Great life advice, would listen again.

EL_ULY > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:10

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LOL :]

for Michigan > TysMagic 07/26/2016 at 17:11

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I’m already a Fiero owner and I think I’ve avoided the stereotype fairly well. Maybe I’m immune?

Spridget > Berang 07/26/2016 at 17:11

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CP on the midget. It’s missing all of the side and hood trim, has a side reflector from a later model (if it’s really a ‘65 and not a later car), the seats aren’t correct, the shifter boot is wrong, the door panels are incorrect, and the 1098 is the weakest engine. None of this would be a major problem, but you can get way better for $5k.

for Michigan > Berang 07/26/2016 at 17:13

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A Formula or 88 GT is a legitimate sports car.

Spridget > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:13

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You should buy the GMC motorhome and autocross it.

I have no idea where the EXP guy got RWD from, seeing how it’s based on an Escort.

facw > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:14

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Silver is better than white:

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/569896…

Plus they’ve modified the engine, so maybe it will be faster (or maybe it will explode). Either way, an exciting time!

for Michigan > Spridget 07/26/2016 at 17:14

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How is a Fiero dull? It’s an 80s RWD, mid-engine sports car with suspension design by Lotus.

for Michigan > Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage 07/26/2016 at 17:15

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I’d almost given up on finding a clean, unmodified Formula at a reasonable price. Then that one showed up.

for Michigan > facw 07/26/2016 at 17:16

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I’ve had that one recommended to me previously. The interior is awful and the modifications scare me. Otherwise, it’s great.

facw > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:17

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I’d go with this Stealth though. Everyone loves the 3000GT right?

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/568300…

for Michigan > Spridget 07/26/2016 at 17:18

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Craigslist. RWD is FWD and Manual is Automatic.

for Michigan > facw 07/26/2016 at 17:18

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So much nope right there.

Spridget > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:19

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I personally see it as a boring old sports car. Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who looks at ads for beater Goggomobils on mobile.de and thinks, “yeah, I could daily that.” My tastes are . . . unusual.

facw > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:21

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Also, while I wouldn’t buy it, I’m very amused by this MR2 which is covered in its main image:

http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/564126…

Why?

Oh...

My bird IS the word > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:22

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I would go fiero, but I would hold out for a gt. those late model ones with the buttresses are purdy

for Michigan > Spridget 07/26/2016 at 17:23

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That’s fair. I’m not really into weird old economy/city cars, but I can understand why someone would be.

Jonee > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:23

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There’s good enough Merkur support out there, that you should be ok. The Fiero will be easier to get parts for, and should be more reliable. But, you’ve owned one of those, so go for the XR4Ti. They’re a blast.

for Michigan > facw 07/26/2016 at 17:23

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Hahaha. I didn’t even bother clicking on that add. Absolutely should’ve though.

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:23

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Yeah, they’re pretty tough to find in that shape. Especially Formulas since they didn’t make many of those to begin with.

for Michigan > My bird IS the word 07/26/2016 at 17:25

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I actually prefer the notchbacks. My ideal Fiero is an early bumper-pad notchback with the Formula drivetrain and suspension. Unfortunately, they never made one of those.

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:25

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I’ve never been a fan of the fiero. I think it’s because my dad used to talk badly about my friends parents fiero. And although I didn’t manage to listen to almost anything he said when I was 8 like go to church when you grow up and don’t do drugs when your a teenager, etc; those fiero comments stuck with me apparently.

Now, I love the Merkur. I want a Merkur myself. I respect the family connection. However, the fiero seems like the better choice.

Now for one suggestion off your list. I myself have been trying to hunt down a later model (86+) Porsche 924 S or 944. Similar cost, low weight, good handling, decent quickness. Parts availability is actually pretty good at the junkyards around town. You do pay a premium for new replacements like bushings though. The 2.5L engine also seems to be pretty long lasting.

facw > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:26

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OK, nevermind, get this one:

http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/cto/569905…

Think how awesome those headlights would be if they weren’t obviously broken...

for Michigan > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 07/26/2016 at 17:27

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944's are sweet. One of my favorite Porsches in fact. I’ve looked into cost of ownership though and it isn’t pretty.

for Michigan > facw 07/26/2016 at 17:28

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Love Opel GTs! Another one of my dad’s favorites, actually. I’ve heard parts are even harder to find than a Merkur.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:29

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I didn’t say it was unreliable, I said it’d fall apart. Sure, the drivetrain is bulletproof, but it’s dull and uninspiring and coupled to a car whose singular redeeming feature is it handles kind of okay.

3800s are pretty much foolproof and the swap is ludicrously common and well-documented and the result is 260hp instead of 140.

Also, you never mentioned if this was a ‘fun weekend car’ or a ‘daily driver that also happens to be fun’. If the former, fuck yeah buy the Merkur or someone else’s project (such as a 3800SC Fiero). If the latter, SW20 MR2 Turbo or a Nissan 200SX, though the former might be difficult to find at the price point you’re considering.

Flies With Thunderbirds > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:33

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Ever driven a Fiero? It’s a goddamned nightmare. It’s no comparison to an MR2 in terms of reliability, handling, or sportiness.

for Michigan > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/26/2016 at 17:35

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For the record, I love 3800SC-swapped Fieros. If I get a Formula, that’s probably going to happen one day.

While I’ll admit that base-model Fiero’s (I own one) only redeeming handling characteristic is lateral grip (0.84 G on stock tires), the Formula has a completely different suspension (new mounting points and all) that doesn’t handle ‘kind of okay’, it handles like a proper mid-engine sports car.

From a driving standpoint, what I’ve read about XR4Ti’s indicates that they’re good, but not great.

for Michigan > Flies With Thunderbirds 07/26/2016 at 17:36

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RTFA.

TysMagic > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:37

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sounds like you should test the theory on a Merkur.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:38

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If you want something more practical, get the Merkur.

If you want something more sporty and probably has a better chance of appreciating (if you keep it stock), go with the Fiero.

My bird IS the word > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:38

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Taste is subjective. But after dealing with a fixer upper, parts availability is where it's at

Bytemite > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:41

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It has around same powerband in peak condition but the spyder’s power to weight ratio is better. But it doesnt matter, you dont want convertible.

Mitsubishi Starion? Porsche 944? What about a Z?

Nibbles > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:42

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The Fiero is nice, but 2.8 parts were hard to source back in 1998 when I had my 2.8 Camaro. Not sure, but I doubt availability has increased much since then...

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:48

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I still think an MR2 SW20 turbo is the way to go if you can find one. Stupid reliable, durable interiors that are rather decent place to be, and IMO better looking than the Fiero but that’s subjective.

Your boy, BJR > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:50

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Seems here like you made up your mind. Why even ask at this point if all you're gonna do is attack people who give you an opinion other than the one you want to hear?

for Michigan > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/26/2016 at 17:51

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All the ones around here have been modified to scary levels. Plus, I think the Fiero is a much better looking car and I prefer its interior.

for Michigan > Bytemite 07/26/2016 at 17:54

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Love the way Starions look, but I don’t really want one.

The cost to own a 944 is too much for me.

The only Z I like is the 240-280Z and I don’t want something quite that old.

for Michigan > TysMagic 07/26/2016 at 17:54

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Haha. I like the way you think!

for Michigan > Your boy, BJR 07/26/2016 at 17:57

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Who exactly did I attack? I was somewhat terse with Jake, but I never attacked him.

Sure I’m arguing against points some people are making here, but that’s the entire purpose of this post.

InFierority Complex > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 17:59

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Fiero would be my vote. I daily an ‘86 GT so I’m probably biased. The 2.8l is decent enough and a surprisingly comfortable long distance highway/ interstate cruiser (small tank being a slight annoyance). I used to drive from El Paso to Denver a couple times a year and it was an incredibly enjoyable experience. Plus that exhaust note is very pleasant.

Parts availability is there as it’s GM as well as places like the Fiero Store, and it has as a relatively sizable community.

IMHO the exterior design of the Fiero has held up remarkably well especially when compared to most other designs from Pontiac in the 80s.

Sorry for the rambling reply, long day. The Fiero isn’t a perfect car by any means, but it is a better car than its reputation deserves.

Master Cylinder > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 18:02

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They’re really not that bad if you start with one in decent condition. A lot of the horror stories come from people who buy a 10-owner 944 that sat for years outside and don’t bring the maintenance up to date.

for Michigan > InFierority Complex 07/26/2016 at 18:03

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I used to drive my 2m4 on 100+ miles trips on a regular basis. Not a great highway car, but it got me where I needed to go. That’s one of the things the 2.8 L would improve on.

for Michigan > Master Cylinder 07/26/2016 at 18:04

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Fair point.

derf > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 18:08

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Additionally, if you autocross them the XR4Ti is classed in G street (if it’s stock), where the Fiero would be E street, which has cooler cars and would also allow you to make cheesy Bruce Springsteen puns.

CaptDale - is secretly British > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 18:23

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I loved my ‘87 GT. I miss her all the time.

Shab > for Michigan 07/26/2016 at 20:18

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I’ve always liked the way the Fiero looks so I would go with that. I think they look best in red

There’s a vaguely listed MR2 AW11 here though. Not sure which I’d pick

for Michigan > Shab 07/26/2016 at 20:56

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Not a fan of red, but it is *the* Fiero color.

Personally, I wish I could get one in green.

jdrgoat - Ponticrack? > for Michigan 07/27/2016 at 00:41

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You know my answer! But also, it needs to be mentioned that the 88 suspension was not tuned by Lotus. It was fully a Pontiac venture, and they actually knew what they were doing and were given a measly budget by the brass to implement what they had in mind from the start.

Honestly, I’m happy that I have the 84-87 because of parts availability.

for Michigan > jdrgoat - Ponticrack? 07/27/2016 at 01:22

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You’re right! I forgot that it was said to be similar to Lotus designs, but it was completely in-house.

I know parts are harder to find for the WS6 cars, but I think it’s worth it to have the improved ride and handling over the base suspension.

jdrgoat - Ponticrack? > for Michigan 07/27/2016 at 11:19

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There was a WS6 suspension for all the years (both of my 85's are WS6, and I think it may have even been an option on any trim level). The WS6 included different springs, and a faster steering rack. I’m not sure if there was more to it than that in 88. And I think that’s all that it was on the early cars. I think.

The 88 is a whole new suspension design. It has a different engine cradle, a multi-link rear suspension which offers hugely improved geometry, more neutral handling, better feel and stability... It also has different (better, vented) brakes including the calipers, and brakes and caliper rebuild kit supplies are drying up. They have redesigned (better) spindles, front and rear, which use different wheel bearings, have different wheel offsets which offer a better scrub radius (more of the improved suspension geometry), and it’s much more difficult to find aftermarket wheels that fit. Oh, and the V6 became internally neutrally balanced that year, which continued for all of that V6 family for the next 20 years. But an 88 Fiero flywheel and clutch is unique to that year, and more expensive, too. You can use the kit from a newer car, but I believe the Fiero had the lightest (stock) flywheel.

I’m sure I’m missing a lot. This is just quick off the top of my head.

d15b > for Michigan 07/27/2016 at 17:26

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Troll, troll, troll your boat.

random001 > for Michigan 07/27/2016 at 17:43

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Late to the party, go Diego.

Nauraushaun > for Michigan 07/29/2016 at 10:06

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I’d rather not waste space and weight on a back seat that I won’t use.

Yes! YES! This was my thinking when I went from 2+2 300ZX to my current MR2. I didn’t use the back seats often, and everyone else in the world has back seats so when I’ve got >2 friends we can just take someone else’s car.

Hasn’t been an issue yet.

TysMagic > for Michigan 07/29/2016 at 11:59

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do you know this guy?! Because there is your Merkur dreams coming true

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/this-is-not-me…

Matthew Keyser > for Michigan 07/29/2016 at 12:05

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http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1986-m…

The most famous Merkur in the world.

for Michigan > TysMagic 07/29/2016 at 12:19

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Based on my research into Merkurs, that’s not a car I want. Hasty respray aside, according to the Merkur forums, the visible rust is a sign of a pretty significant problem.

I think I’ve decided on the Fiero anyway.

TysMagic > for Michigan 07/29/2016 at 12:20

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I look forward to build pics either way